Difference between revisions of "008 When and Where"

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'''Jesus Seminar'''
 
'''Jesus Seminar'''
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The Seminar's voting on the texts related to this item were as follows:
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<span style="font-weight: bold;">POxy654 3:1</span><br style="font-weight: bold;" />
 
<span style="font-weight: bold;">POxy654 3:1</span><br style="font-weight: bold;" />

Revision as of 03:22, 1 April 2006

This page is part of the Jesus Database project.


Data

1a) GThom. 3:1 & P. Oxy. 654.3:1
(1b) GThom. 51; (1c) GThom. 113
(2) 2Q: Luke 17:23 = Matt 24:26
(3) Mark 13:21-23 = Matt 24:23-25
(4?) Dial. Sav. 16; (5) 1Q?: Luke 17:20-21


Crossan analysis:
Item: 8
Stratum: I (30-60 CE)
Attestation: Multiple
Historicity: +
Common Sayings Tradition: Yes
Miracle Tradition: No


Texts

(1) Gospel of Thomas

(1a) Thom 3:1-5

Jesus said, "If your leaders say to you, 'Look, the imperial rule is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you." If they say to you, 'It is in he sea,' then the fish will precede you. /3/ Rather, the imperial rule is inside you and outside you. /4/ When you know yourselves, then you will be known, and you will understand that you are children of the living Father. /5/ But if you do not know yourselves, then you live in poverty, and you are poverty. [Complete Gospels]

= POxy654 3:1-5
Jesus says, "[If] your leaders [say to you, 'Look,] the Father's> imperial rule is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you. /2/ If they say] that it is under the earth, then the fish of the sea [will precede] you. /3/ And [the imperial rule] is inside you [and outside . /4/ You who] know [yourselves] will find this. [And when you] know yourselves, [you will understand that] you are [children] of the [living] Father. /5/ [But if] you do [not] know yourselves, [you live] in poverty, and you are [poverty]." [Complete Gospels]

(1b) Thom 51

His disciples said to him, "When will the rest for the dead take place, and when will the new world come?" /2/ He said to them, "What you are looking for has come, but you don't know it." [Complete Gospels]

(1c) Thom 113

His disciples said to him, "When will the imperial rule come?" /2/ "It will not come by watching for it. /3/ It will not be said, 'Look, here!' or 'Look, there!' /4/ Rather, the Father's imperial rule is spread out upon the earth, and people don't see it." [Complete Gospels]


(2) 2Q: Luke 17:23

They will say to you, 'Look there!' or 'Look here!' Do not go, do not set off in pursuit.

= Matt 24:26
So, if they say to you, 'Look! He is in the wilderness,' do not go out. If they say, 'Look! He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe it.


(3) Mark 13:21-23

/21/ And if anyone says to you at that time, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'Look! There he is!' --do not believe it. /22/ False messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. /23/ But be alert; I have already told you everything.

= Matt 24:23-25
/23/ Then if anyone says to you, 'Look! Here is the Messiah!' or 'There he is!' --do not believe it. /24/ For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and produce great signs and omens, to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. /25/ Take note, I have told you beforehand.


(4?) DialSav 16

/1/ "If you do not [understand] how fire came to be, you will burn in it, because you do not know its root. /2/ If you do not first understand water, you know nothing; for what is the use of your receiving baptism in it? /3/ If you do not understand how the wind that blows came to be, you will fly away with it. /4/ If you do not understand how the body which you bear came to be, you will perish with it. /5/ And if you do not know [the S]on, how will you know the [Father]? /6/ And you will not know the root of all things; they are hidden from you. /7/ Those who will not know the root of wickedness are not strangers to it. /8/ Those who will not understand how they came will not understand how they will go; and they are no strangers to this world which will [..and] which will be humbled." [Complete Gospels]


(5)1Q?: Luke 17:20-21

/20/ Once Jesus was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God was coming, and he answered, "The kingdom of God is not coming with things that can be observed; /21/ nor will they say, 'Look, here it is!' or 'There it is!' For, in fact, the kingdom of God is among you."


Literature

Parallels

Commentary

Jesus Seminar

The Seminar's voting on the texts related to this item were as follows:


POxy654 3:1
POxy654 3:1
Thom 3:1-3
Thom 3:1-3
Thom 3:1
Thom 51:2
Thom 113:2-4
Thom 113:2-4
Luke 17:23
Matt 24:26
Mark 13:21
Mark 13:22
Mark 13:23
Matt 24:23
Matt 24:24
Matt 24:25
Luke 17:20b-21

John P. Meier

Meier [Marginal Jew II,423-430] suggests that "a number of considerations tip the balance in favor of authenticity" for the "isolated logion" he finds behind Luke 17:20b, 21b. In a lengthy footnote (n. 106 on II,476f), Meier argues (against Crossan and James M. Robinson) that Thom 3 and 113 are dependent on the Lukan form and cannot be taken as independent witnesses to this logion.

Poetry

Gene Stecher

The kingdom does not come.
It is already here within each of us.
It is already here between each of us.

Some Kingdom triggers
seem more effective than others.
The HJ words pronounce our potential.

Gene

Gene Stecher
Chambersburg, Pa.